Snag in the fanfic fabric
So just after completing the first draft of the first part of my Clark-Bruce fanfic, I decided to go look at canon materials as research for facts. Seems I’ve got the facts all wrong and it’s bothering me.
I’ve postulated that Batman would be active and fighting crime a few years before Superman, and that he would be a few years older than Clark. Clark in the Smallville context is 16 or 17 years old, and I was figuring Bruce at 22 or 23 having been active for a year or so.
Well, I went back to Batman: Year One by Miller and Mazzuchelli. I think that’s canon. According to this version, Bruce was 25 when he first put on a cape. And someone makes a comment to the effect that “you don’t have to go all the way to Metropolis to find a man of steel” which indicates pretty clearly that Superman was running around and publicly known by then.
Of course, this is fanfic, plus Smallville is already a non-canon variant. Still, it’s disappointing to have my pet theory blown.
Yes, I’m a geek. Shut up. Now to see if I still have a copy of The Untold Legend of the Batman or John Byrne’s Man of Steel miniseries.
Of course, this is fanfic,
Of course, this is fanfic, plus Smallville is already a non-canon variant.
Yep. You don’t have to honor seventy years of comic continuity: all you have to do is not contradict Smallville continuity. Such as it is.
p.s. It is fitting that
p.s. It is fitting that since Superman predated Batman in real life, he should retain that primacy in the secondary universe as well. I think that’s why I have a problem with the idea of Superman taking hero lessons from Batman. Superman is the first. It’s just part of who he is: primary colors, primary status. Batman is like Supes’ shadow; he comes after, he’s defined by his difference.
You’re kind of trying to reverse that, to have Superman define himself against Batman rather than the other way around, and I think it’s cause you just like Batman better. But I’m not sure it’s true to the character concepts.
Welllllll, OK, yes. Action
Welllllll, OK, yes. Action Comics #1 preceded Detective Comics #27 by eleven months. But to say that Batman is defined by difference from Superman is absurd. Batman was different from the other stories that appeared in Detective Comics in that he had gadgets and a costume. Superman was the first of his kind; Batman was a variant of a genre that had been going on long before Superman existed. What you’re saying, although factually correct, is sort of like saying The Shadow was a Doc Savage knock-off. (Yes, and Superman will always be a Doc Savage knock-off)
Superman will always be published by the Detective Comics company. Batman will never be published by the Action Comics company.
Superman was the first of
Superman was the first of his kind
See? You agree with me.
Yes, and Superman will always be a Doc Savage knock-off
No, he’s fundamentally different, and even you acknowledged that already, so LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU.
OK, I was out of line with
OK, I was out of line with the Doc Savage comment. I apologize.
So basically Diana got her whole inspiration from seeing Clark in action? She has no mission but to imitate Superman? It’s pretty clear, at least from canon materials, that neither Batman nor Superman (or Wonder Woman, for that matter) got the idea to resist evil from the other.
Crap. Well, I don’t have a story any more, do I? Maybe I could do a Clark/Phantom crossover.
It’s pretty clear, at least
It’s pretty clear, at least from canon materials, that neither Batman nor Superman (or Wonder Woman, for that matter) got the idea to resist evil from the other.
That is basically what I’m saying, except I’m also saying that if one of them was first it was Superman.
Crap. Well, I don’t have a story any more, do I?
I thought the story was Lex versus Bruce? What part of that goes out the window if Clark isn’t taking hero lessons from Batman?
OK first, “giving hero
OK first, “giving hero lessons” is unfair. I thought he might provide some piece of practical advice, like to work under a pseudonym and to keep his identity secret. Canonical Superman has read The Scarlet Pimpernel, but I don’t think Smallville’s Clark has, despite the claim that he’s “read every book in the Smallville library.” Smallvillle’s Clark is either playing dumb or just isn’t very book-smart.
Almost anything that Batman would have to teach Clark about being a hero, Clark would reject out of hand anyway. Batman would be full of “wow, you can fly, so you could fly criminals to 70,000 feet until they pass out from anoxia and terror, then bring them back down and dangle them by one toe or threaten to toss them into the intake of a moving jet engine! That’s great!” And Clark would be like “no, I’m not going to hurt anyone if I can help it.”
In fact, the ENTIRELY NEW TO ME idea that Batman would be Clark’s tutor is sort of intriguing, because I imagine that would be a formative Clark experience as he vows to stand for everything Batman isn’t.
Nevertheless, I find it much more believable that Batman could inspire Superman than vice versa. Seeing Batman in action would drive Clark to the conclusion that if people without extranormal abilities could do it that he could damn well make a difference, and besides, with his special abilities he could do it *right* instead of being a big terrorist like Wayne.
Going the other way, I don’t see how having a bulletproof space alien in a blue suit flying around inspires a human to take action. “Superman thwarts bank robbers” yeah, well if I were bulletproof I could do that too. Pass the bong. Little old lady getting beat up in the street? Sounds like a job for Superman. Wonder where he is anyway? I oughtta write to my congressman and complain about that guy.
As far as having a story, well, if it’s Lex versus Bruce and Bruce isn’t old enough to have dedicated his life to stopping people like (he thinks) Lex, it’s more like “Lex and Bruce sit around and drink expensive champagne, nothing happens.” Not much story there.
Seeing Batman in action
Seeing Batman in action would drive Clark to the conclusion that if people without extranormal abilities could do it that he could damn well make a difference
Dunno, I just don’t think that works. Clark’s drive to protect people comes from the way he was raised (or, my personal pet theory, from his genetics). Either way it’s deeply innate. In the Smallville context, Clark is already taking action. He makes a difference every week. (Not always for the better, but…)
Going the other way, I don’t see how having a bulletproof space alien in a blue suit flying around inspires a human to take action.
See, I’m really sensing the Superman hate from you, and I just don’t think that putting Clark in a subordinate position to Bruce is going to fix the problems we both have with the Big Dumb Alien.
As far as having a story, well, if it’s Lex versus Bruce and Bruce isn’t old enough to have dedicated his life to stopping people like (he thinks) Lex
What if he has, in the same sense that Clark has already dedicated himself to truth, justice and the American way? They’re both doing it, but not yet in tights? (Heh heh.) I can totally see Bruce being in stage three of a five year plan. After all, doesn’t he have to get the Batcave built and the computer up and running and stuff before he actually puts on the cape?
Having a half-formed Superman and a fully-formed Batman seems wrong. Can’t they be equals? It’s your story dude, I’m just shooting off my mouth.
Clark is already taking
Clark is already taking action, granted, but he hasn’t decided to make a career out of it. He hangs out with his friends until something happens and then he goes and tries to help. I think that *is* innate. (lowercase ‘i’ on ‘innate’ – I don’t care to go into nature versus nurture here). Grown-up Superman works on a different model. He’s ever- (or at least often-) vigilant and one presumes actually schedules time in his day to investigate criminal activity. He chases villains around the world and beyond.
It could be argued that the change from passive hero-of-opportunity to active hero-of-choice is part of the natural progression from child to adult, but I don’t think it happens spontaneously. I think it happens as a result of the experiences one has as one gets older. Nothing grows in a vacuum.
In the Smallville context so far, Clark is always just along for the ride and finds some sneaky way to save the day without anyone seeing him. Bruce is On A Mission starting at age 8, but, at least according to canon, doesn’t actually embark on that mission by leaving the training and preparation phase and going out to make a difference until age 25. He’s not going to throw charity balls until he’s 20, I’m certain. And he’s not going to try to stop Lex Luthor until he’s got a few months in the field. Bruce is many things, but impetuous is not one.
So keeping with canon, *maybe* a younger rasher Bruce Wayne would try to take down Lex and learn that he’s got to plan better in the future. OK, well, then there’s no charity ball being held at Wayne Manor, and you can throw away all of chapter one. AND this entirely different story than the one I’d been writing is just the story of Bruce Wayne getting his ass kicked (literally or figuratively) by Lex Luthor and his Big Dumb Bodyguard.
A story with both Batman and Superman should be about What It Means To Be A Hero, not just about humiliating Batman. You’ve expressed interest in seeing Superman win the Superman versus Batman fight, and so I guess what’s coming up is what you want to see. Young Bruce Wayne is the villain. So OK, maybe you’ll get your victory.
A story with both Batman and
A story with both Batman and Superman should be about What It Means To Be A Hero, not just about humiliating Batman.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Batman/Superman story where Batman got “humiliated.” Whereas I have seen – more than once – the story where Batman humiliates Superman. So that’s no longer very interesting to me. It’s a tired conceit. I’m just sayin’.
OK, well, then there’s no charity ball being held at Wayne Manor, and you can throw away all of chapter one.
Dude, whoa. You don’t have to pick up your toys and go home. Tell your story however you wanna tell it; if I hate it I’ll write my own rebuttal and we’ll call them Earth Sp and Earth Si and do crossovers from time to time.
I’m not taking my toys and
I’m not taking my toys and going home; just frustrated. If Bruce is 16, chapter one is scrapped and I’m starting from scratch. What I’ve written assumes Bruce is Lex’s age, and Lex is 22 or 23 right?
It’s easier for me – for a lot of reasons – to adjust Bruce’s age upward for this story than downward.
How would you like to see Diana kick Batman’s ass?
What I’ve written assumes
What I’ve written assumes Bruce is Lex’s age, and Lex is 22 or 23 right?
24. According to the Smallville character bios, Lex was born in 1980. More interesting tidbits: “Lex’s full name is Alexander Joseph Luthor…His mother died in 1993. Lex has attended schools all over Europe. He graduated from Princeton with a degree in biochemical engineering. He started graduate school at Yale and is now on a break.”
It’s easier for me – for a lot of reasons – to adjust Bruce’s age upward for this story than downward.
So make him Lex’s age. It’s a Smallville story and Smallville hasn’t established Bruce Wayne’s date of birth. I just don’t like the idea that Superman picks up a cape ’cause he’s imitating Batman, but maybe you can sell me on it over the course of the story.
How would you like to see Diana kick Batman’s ass?
I’m up for seeing Diana kick anybody’s ass, up to and including my own.
But really, I don’t have anything against Batman. It’s not like I want to see him get his teeth kicked in. I love Batman! I just want to see Superman get his goddamn due for once.
24 is even better. I can
24 is even better. I can justify a single year of age difference between Lex and Bruce. Especially because Lex is like a supergenius and all that, and poof! Bruce is only ONE year older and already Batman.
And I think it’s part of Superman’s “due” that he doesn’t ever kick Batman’s ass. He doesn’t ever sink to that level. And he lets Batman get away with a lot of stuff. In the grown-up canon world, I think it’s axiomatic that Superman holds Batman in great esteem and even admires Batman. If Superman ever had any doubt that Batman was not a Good Guy, Batman would be unmasked, in chains, and serving a life sentence under maximum security. Whether the US of A could build a prison that could hold Batman is another question, but it’s painfully clear to me anyway that Batman operates only at Superman’s whim.
I also have to doubt that Superman would ever let Batman have a career without some kind of a head start. With no track record, if Batman pulled the shit that Batman pulls, BAM! in prison faster than a.… well, you know.
Yeah, yeah, Dark Knight Returns. I know, Batman found a way to beat Superman. But Superman was acting (grudgingly, I believe) under orders. If Superman believed that Bruce was a Bad Guy, it would have been over long before it began.
I’d never try to sell you on the idea that Superman is imitating Batman, but everyone makes their way in the world with some context and history. Even Superman.